Hooniverse Asks- Who Could Potentially Dethrone The Miata?
When it debuted in 1989, Mazda’s MX-5 Miata was considered a homage to the great proletariat sports cars of the past, cars such as the MGB and Triumph Spitfire. Today however, it is the standard against which all cheap sports car contenders are judged, its acumen and desirability maintained all these years hence. Is that position unassailable, or could another company conceivably usurp the Miata’s throne?
Here’s the thing, the Miata has been around a long time, and while now on its third iteration, it remains. . . well, a Miata. Others have tried to knock the crown from its head, whether BMW z3 and 4, or Honda S2000, but none has ever been able to match the value and snick-snick of the little Mazda’s perfectly balanced shifter, no matter how hard they’ve tried. Still, most of us used to browse the Web with something called Netscape Navigator, and Blockbuster Video used to be the single most popular place for blockbusters and cinematic turds alike, but both are now relics of the past. Could the Miata join them, just due to its ubiquity and consumer apathy?
We need cheap sports cars, and as the Miata is – in car years – AARP-worthy, what would we do should it go away? What company do you think stands in the best place to jump in and fill that small sports car niche? Could it be Scion or Subaru, with their rear-driven twins? Or maybe Nissan, whose Z-car has been swinging from the ladder one rung up from the Miata these past few years? Or perhaps it will come from somewhere least expected – a new Fiat 124 or X1/9 dropping jaws and panties alike? What do you think, what car maker is positioned to make the Miata a has-been?
Image: [flyinmiata]
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I would say the GT-86/BRZ has the greatest chance really. The BMW cars are too high end to be the cheap throwabout car that the Miata is. I don't see Fiat coming to the US with a similar package. The Solstice had potential but fizzled out early. The S2000 was almost there, but missed some of the magic. It was a worthy competitor. The Z cars are too large to be in the right place. The kit car market has some competition, but they work on a completely different scale and can't be compared by most people.
But early reports are showing that the GT-86 has that great feel that's needed among all else, and it's affordable. The biggest thing it lacks is open air motoring.
Mazda floated a fixed head coupe version of the Miata but never went thru with it. Because the Toyaburu is only offered as a hard top is a plus for the track junkies. So I agree the GT86BR549 has potential.
<img src="http://image.motortrend.com/f/auto-shows/mazda-celebrates-20-years-of-the-mx-5-miata-at-chicago/14759753+w750/1996-mazda-m-coupe.jpg" width="450">
They did sell a coupe version of the 2nd gen miata, but it was only sold in Japan.
Every time I see this, I start thinking "I wonder if I can find a back-half clip in a Japanese junkyard…"
I wonder the same thing about 1980s Honda Accord Aerodecks, though it would probably be easier to import a whole one and drop in a U.S.-spec engine and emissions system to keep CARB quiet.
The Pontiac Solstice…..never mind.
It would have never worked. If GM hadn't killed it during the bankruptcy, they'd only have gotten it really right for about this model year (I am to understand the M/T on it was not great, to the point where I heard a member of the M/T Mafia on some other site declare that "you should buy the automatic version"). And of course, once they got it right for this model year, they would have cancelled it next year.
I almost put my foot through the floor when I drove one. Calling the clutch spongy is being polite.
We autocross one our of our shop: it makes a great racer, but it is absolutely miserable as a street car: uncomfortable interior, horrible visibility, no luggage space, awful top design, (and it leaks) agricultural engine, and build quality just slightly south of a child's Erector set.
Sounds like a modern MGB.
It won't surprise me if the Koreans take a run at it.
Agreed. Both seem to be in a great position, and can offer great value. Plus their million-mile warranties.
and now I'm getting ads for a used 2000 Miata at a Hyundai dealership.
I would echo this – the potential dethroner hasn't been released yet, but could be on some sketchpad in the southern region of either California or Korea.
I came here to say the same thing. The Koreans have not introduced a convertible here yet, right?
<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/1277/2421/3191210021_large.jpg">
…No, you know what, come to think of it, they haven't.
<img src="http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_kW7pFkuD5e4/TP-Zjal2mBI/AAAAAAAAEtU/uH6Ktqx5R_4/s1600/Kia%252BRoadster.jpg" width=500 /img>
FWD or no, I wish Kia had progressed further along the path set by the Elan.
They aspired to greater things…
<img src="http://www.carlustblog.com/images/2008/07/03/aspire1.jpg">
A Supra at a track?! No way. The one my neighbor owns just sits under the car port, and maybe makes late night drug deals. Maybe.
Hard to be at the fun and reliability per dollar ratio. Especially if you limit things to convertibles. May a new low end Lotus could do it.
Lotus is going the opposite direction with their cars, much to my chagrin.
I believe the Toyobaru will NOT replace it as a cheap trackday capable car, for a few reasons:
-Scions (and Subarus somewhat) don't depreciate enough. Even in the used market, the car will not be a bargain. Its hype and already rabid fanboys will not help this.
-Its aggressive styling and outright "sportiness" will severely limit its market share. Part of the Miata's success is due to its abundance, leading to cheaper used prices (see above) and more aftermarket companies. Much of its initial sales success is due to its non-confrontational styling and predictable small convertible package.
-Mazda has done a lot to support both amateur and professional racing programs to promote its products. Scion, on the other hand, promotes a street tuner scene. I don't know if Subaru's rally program will help the BRZ get into circuit racing.
If the 2014 Miata can get weight down well under 2000 lbs and the 1.3 skyactiv turbo can at least keep up with the old engine, then the next Miata will be the new Miata. Otherwise Toyobaru as already noted.
Maybe something mid engined, from a high volume manufacturer, with a good reputation for quality…
<img src="http://www.fotosdeautos.org/albums/toyota/Toyota-MRS/Fotos-Toyota-MRS-017.jpg" width=500>
Nevermind.
How about 2 out of 3?
<img src="http://www.cartype.com/pics/1094/full/pontiac_fiero_84.jpg"width=500>
Probably not. What about 1 out of 3?
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Lotus_elise_green.jpg" width=500 />
Or not…
A used Elise is selling in the mid $20k range. Maybe in time prices will decline more and give the Miata/MX-5 more competition.
<img src="http://www.cstatic-images.com/main/MDC/10/811110/542205130.jpg"> <a href="http://www.cars.com/for-sale/used/lotus/elise/_/N-ma9ZfhjZg8wZm5d?mkId=20071&mdId=21056&rd=100000&zc=40517&PMmt=1-1-0&stkTypId=28881&rpp=50&feedSegId=28705&searchSource=SORT&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=ASC&sf2Nm=modelYear&sf2Dir=ASC” target=”_blank”>http://www.cars.com/for-sale/used/lotus/elise/_/N-ma9ZfhjZg8wZm5d?mkId=20071&mdId=21056&rd=100000&zc=40517&PMmt=1-1-0&stkTypId=28881&rpp=50&feedSegId=28705&searchSource=SORT&crSrtFlds=stkTypId-feedSegId-mkId-mdId&pgId=2102&sf1Nm=price&sf1Dir=ASC&sf2Nm=modelYear&sf2Dir=ASC
AAAAHHHH the Firefox alt-home shortcut will be the death of me. I had a long comment typed up and lost it.
The Elise won't ever be a Miata replacement when used Miatas are selling in the mid $2k range. Even the NB Miatas are widely available for sub-$5k now. There weren't enough Elises made to ever hit that level of depreciation. There needs to be hundreds of thousands of them out there to begin to approach the Miata – which has sold over 900,000 (or is it a million now?) examples.
Hell, you can pick up an NC for easily half of what a similar-condition Elise would run. The Elise isn't twice as fun as the Miata and it's only about half as practical (relatively speaking here!). It's a phenominal driver's car, but it's not quite a Miata competitor.
First the one about missing your first car, and now this? I swear you guys are picking on me.
I know this will sound crazy to many but if the Chevy 130R-RWD concept comes around and stays a little true to form, we may have a winner.<img src="http://ps-garage.com/sites/default/files/chevy_c130r_b.jpg"width=500>
150hp, RWD, and around $20k sound good, but that's a lot of "ifs."
Image from http://www.ps-garage.com/news/chevrolet-code-130r…
As much as I love the modern interpretation of an '80s Mustang notchback for purely nostalgic reasons – oh friends' car in high school, they even got the color right – it's not open top. The Miata appeals to everyone, from enthusiasts to people who just want to get their hair to the salon, that's not going to cast nearly as wide a net.
If they can just de-ugly it… Personally I think they ought to just make another run at the Kappa platform. For all their faults, the Solstice and Sky had the bones of a great roadster in them.
Hey, those are basically the design targets on the Solstice! Fool me once, and so on.
I like the spec targets, but it looks like it was drawn by the same bastard who drew the HHR after he threw away his French curve and found himself a slightly bendy ruler to use instead. Can't scrub the ugly off that.
I really dig this concept. I'd be giddy with anticipation if GM hadn't comprehensively shit the bed every single they've gone through with one of these.
If it sells well enough to warrant a second generation, then it will be golden.
While Dodge has threatened a few different ideas, and the VW Ecosport concept looked promising, I'm not sure anything actually planned to go to market has a chance. The Miata's success is partially due to being everything to everyone. It's a cute little convertible to people who don't care about cars, it's a focused and well balanced driving machine to those who do, it's cheap enough that you don't need that much money to have one, but since it's a fun toy that's really nice to drive, even if you have money you might take one home. Everything coming up is missing one part of that equation.
Just wait for that new Saab Sonett IV.
Just wait.
<img src="http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/sahara_12_08/01_03B.jpg" width=400>
/crickets chirping
Yeah, the patient needs considerably more than an IV at this point.
You just need to find the right investor…
<img src="http://www.imperialteutonicorder.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sacredheartjesus.jpg">
With Hyundai's Genesis Coupe seeming to be pretty popular it might just be the ticket. The first generation has fairly mild styling. The second generation is going to be more polarizing in order to keep up with the Toyobaru. Looking at the influx of small, sporty RWD cars to the market we might be seeing some real gems pop up. Or real turds.
PS. I miss the Sky.
<img src="http://i.imgur.com/NXcOm.gif" alt="" title="Hosted by imgur.com" />
Go outside and look up.
It's OK the interwebs have done this to all of us at one time or another. The DayStar is nothing to fear in small doses.
Nissan needs to get into the Miata, BRZ, GT-86 market with a FM based, MR16DDT car and bring more competition to this segment.
I was hoping it'd be this…
<img src="http://www.carw.co/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/honda-s2000-2004.jpg" width="600">
Buuuut, I guess not.
I haz a sad.
You could also get the Moss Motors catalog, order one of everything, and build a brand new MGB. Might take a while, though.
Or, if you're not picky about keeping it close to stock specifications and are among the first fifty people to cough up the dough, you can get these guys to throw together an MG LE50 instead:
http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/%C2%A350k-frontline-m…
…with a Mazda engine, just to bring things around full-circle.
Even longer if you want to actually drive it.
Ah. Moss Motors. I visited their headquarters once when Super-Spouse and I lost the slave cylinder in her MGB, on a roadtrip back from San Diego for the opening day of the USS Midway museum. I nursed the car into their parking lot in Goleta, walked in and said I needed a slave cylinder for an MGB.
You should have seen their blank looks and confusion as I tried to explain what an MGB was (while they stood underneath a grill hanging in their lobby).
For real.
I'm thankful they (and others i.e. Northwest, and Victoria) help keep parts available, but I do wish more of those parts were useful for more than just semi-functional driver quality static displays. The main reason I used them was the fact we had a local distributor who allowed returns. Lots and lots of returns, wrong parts, defective, ill fitting and/or poor functioning. It was enough to drive you mad. He went out of business and I rarely use them anymore. Don't want the hassle.
So, it's a love hate thing. I'd love to give them a second chance on someone else's dime.
Sheer numbers is the defining factor. The miata is a great car and sold well at a good price point. This has determined tons of aftermarket support and lots of cheap vehicles. If the Soyota is as fun to drive and affordable, it eventually might happen. Genesis coupe, might happen. Any car that is not currently in production doesn't have a chance. I think it was a perfect storm that created the miata. It's hard to see any car company coming up with something that could challenge it the way the companies operate now. If they change their paradigm, possibly.
Only Mazda can dethrone the Miata.
This. For something to dethrone the Miata, Mazda needs to screw up. If the new car is sufficiently different that it can't compete with the old one in the spec series, it is no longer attractive to track day folks. If it loses that wonderful balance and handling, it will no longer be a drivers car. And if it gets too masculine or feminine, it will limit its market even further.
The empire will fall a little at a time. Mazda will release something that some folks don't see as a worthy sucessor. Sales fall. Good used examples get harder to find. Then folks will start looking for the next good thing.
Somewhere, in a country where most people commute on scooters because that's all they can afford, cars like the Tata Nano are starting to make inroads. As those cars permeate the nation, just as the basic Model T replaced the horse in the US, these sorts of cars will take that country from a two wheel culture to a four wheel culture. As the models evolve to become a little more durable and crash resistant, US laws regulating CAFE minumums will have kicked in and the White House will push the regulatory agencies to allow these tin cans on wheels on US roads so that the CAFE targets can be met.
The demand for thirsty cars will still be here, of course. So what do you do for someone who wants a large SUV capable of towing a boat or their horse trailer? You sell him that SUV for an extra $10K, and throw in two of these as a package deal. 18MPG+60MPG+60MPG/3 =46. A Suburban that averages 46 MPG! To save money, the carmakers decide to delete the roof and the side windows and the back seat.
Sooner or later, someone will actually drive one, and they'll realize that open-air driving in a lightweight vehicle one-step-up-from-a-scooter can be fun. THAT will be the next Miata.
What's a Miata?
Imagine an MG that doesn't leak oil. Don't hurt yourself trying.
Ah. I think I get it.
<img src="https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/197879_1964138707694_1369652107_2292228_6192324_n.jpg" WIDTH ="600" >
Better, but it looks like it's still got its rear axle. Probably its steering and shocks, too. It'll leak oil.
It's not as hard as you might think.
<img src="http://cache.jalopnik.com/assets/images/12/2010/02/dotj-71midgetblue-06-500px.jpg" width=500>
Oh, come on. I can see the puddle under that one from here.
You're cheating. That could be an Austin Healy Sprite.
Nope. The Sprite was no longer exported to the US after 1969 and the side marker lights peg this junker as a US model post-'69 Midget. For 1970, both the Sprite and Midget got black lower sills, a black plastic grille, and those cheesy-looking wheels. As the final indignity, the Healey name was taken off for 1971 (so BL wouldn't have to pay a license fee to Donald Healey) and the car for its last several months was called Austin Sprite.
<img src="http://www.classicandperformancecar.com/front_website/octane_interact/modelpicture.php?id=7738" width="400/">
Why don't we have more new basic, light sports cars? A picture is worth a thousand words…
<img src="http://asiangiant.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/crzx-versus-crz.jpg" width=600>
This picture is the perfect statement of everything that is wrong with Honda these days.
Just a little more….
<img src="http://home.earthlink.net/~scottking/_uimages/S600vs.S2000Smaller.JPG" width="400">
At least the S2000 is a stonking driver's car, not the anodyne boremobile that is the CR-Z.
Because most people only want basic in theory, but when it comes time to buy, they end up taking more features (hell, look at what the Miata's added on in the past 23 years). As for light, just look at the number of people constantly ragging on the Smart Fortwo as unsafe because of its sub-2000 lbs size.
I don't think the Miata is any more long in the tooth than the Corvette. And if we're talking AARP status, well, the Corvette is older than my Mom. The Mustang isn't far behind the Corvette. Those are both proud sports cars that have a long, brilliant history and are potent brand names in and of themselves. Maybe the Miata is becoming a name like that for Mazda. They just need to keep making it and keep making it what it is with the best current technology can offer, and they'll do that. The Miata killer should always be the next Miata, unless Mazda plays its cards really wrong. I don't think they will, because the British Roadster is a much loved and romanticized vehicle format, and Mazda has made one for over twenty years that has swept all others aside.
So lump me in with the "this is Mazda's to lose" crowd with a side of "I think they're building a new sports car dynasty".
I think government regulations will ultimately dethrone the Miata. Part of the reason it is so popular today is that it is simple to work on and light weight. With tighter emissions and crash regulations that may no longer be possible. Sure, there is a chance that another manufacturer will finally get it and build a fun to drive car that is also inexpensive enough to be adopted by a wide audience but I tend to think that this will not happen. Thus it will either be Mazda or regulations that kill it.
The biggest reason nothing will dethrone the Miata is because "there's already a Miata". Similarly, there aren't any relevant Jeep Wrangler competitors anymore.
If I had $50 million to to develop a new car, I'd spend it on more low-hanging fruit, not in trying to carve a slice out of an already small pie. Case study: Kappa platform. (Also: Capri:Miata, H3:Wrangler, X90:Wrangler, Samurai: Wrangler)
As others have said, the Toyobaru has a shot at nibbling on the Miata, depending on how many they sell. The big difference there is the Miata's appeal to enthusiast and non-enthusiast alike.
By my assessment, Toyota will do what Toyota normally does in markets outside of it's core shit boxes. They put out a cool concept, everyone freaks out, say it's the end of this or the end of that and the reign of glorious ultra mobile has come to be. They'll sell a ton of them, everyone who bought one will realize that they're alright cars but nothing special and sales numbers will decline at a medium pace, unless acted on by the economy. Examples: Tundra Redesign, FJ Cruiser (I'm sure there are more, just the only sales numbers I could find in my laziness).
the price point ya`ll are talking about will never happen again.some one will try but the boys in Italy and Germany already have their gun sites zeroed in @ 60,000. rumor mill has BRZ designed to be open top from the git go but still will probably be 28,0000.i think Fiat will make a Alfa/Cuda/demon with a 1.8 turbo.we will be buying something soon as i get the Kappa paid off (2 plus years) mean while the NA has the best fuel mileage so it`s going to get rebuilt (again).my old crappy Fiat is more comfortable though ,i`ll fix it someday
this thread needs more gay jokes.
Quick! Activate the CharlesSignal!
<img src="http://www.skylighters.org/slimages3/amslcrew1.jpg" />
the charlesSignal seems a little unimpressive. he deserves something better.
As an owner of a 1970 Lotus Elan SE I strongly suggest that nobody can dethrone that car. And while the Miata is pretty cool it doesn't do justice to the Elan. It is probably not possible to build a car that light and so nimble in the USA due to federal regulations.
Regards…