The numbers: is Toyota GT 86 a turkey?
Thanksgiving leftovers?
On Thanksgiving Day, just before getting saturated with football and stuffed with all kinds of yumminess (how is Thanksgiving like not the best holiday EVER!?), we discussed some automotive turkeys. Among others, there was an ugly truck, a shitty car, a magical device, and the Shelby Series 1.
Over the weekend Toyota semi-officially unveiled its much hyped GT 86 sports car. Like any self-respecting Monday morning automotive quarterback, I went right to the specs:
- 2.0-liter boxer with D4-S injection – direct AND port injection.
- 197 horsepower at 7,000 rpm and 151 lb-ft at 6,600 rpm.
- Dimensions: 167” long, 50.6” high, and 101” wheelbase.
My first inclination, in the days when the secretary’s Mustang has over 300hp, was to call this thing a turkey and move on with my life. After all, Honda has given us more than 200 horsepower out of a NA 2.0-liter since the late 1990s, so where is the progress?
I dug deeper into the Euro-spec press release, trying to figure out why both, Toyota and Subaru, would make a vehicle incapable of keeping up with a Hyundai. Despite the GT 86 being described as “most compact four-seater sports car available today”, the “kerb weight” was only vaguely described as “light”.
I looked over the quirky vehicle a little more, trying to understand exactly how “most compact” it really is. Digging deeper and conducting some actual automotive journalism (we’re the real deal here since we went main stream n’ all), I compared the GT 86 (fantastic name by the way [sarcasm]) to other vehicles in that segment in order to get a better feel for its size. Given its claimed compact dimensions I threw in a Mazda Miata for the fun of it. All specs come right off the manufacturers website. Ford does not like to list the weight of their cars.
| Dimension | Toyota GT 86 | Hyundai Genesis Coupe | Ford Mustang | Mazda MX-5 Miata |
| Powah!!! | 197hp | 210hp | 305hp | 167hp |
| Length | 166.9″ | 182.3″ | 188.1″ | 157.3″ |
| Height | 50.6″ | 54.5″ | 55.8″ | 49.0″ |
| Wheelbase | 101.1″ | 111.0″ | 107.1″ | 91.7″ |
| Width | 69.8″ | 73.4″ | 73.9″ | 67.7″ |
| “Kerb weight” (approx) | ??? | 3300lbs | N/A | 2500lbs |
The press release does not mention anything about aluminum or high strength steel, leading me to believe that there is a slim chance of this being anywhere under 3000lbs. So, with a horsepower-to-weight ratio slightly better than that of a ’92 Nissan 240SX, will this be a turkey?
Perhaps, but as the Miata has proven time and time again, the fastest car isn’t always the most fun car. Read this TTAC piece about the development of the GT 86. It will shine some light on why it took so long to bring this car into the market. Will be a great driver’s car? Only time will tell. With regards to that horsepower-to-weight ratio, there is always room for a turbo.
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If the weight (and price) is kept reasonable, these numbers aren't dismal.
Say, 3000lb, and base price under $20k, and there would be a good reason to buy one over a Genesis (which starts at $22k and change with a manual; you're pushing $25k if you want an automatic and good luck finding one that's not overly optioned up). The base Mustang (and Challenger and Camaro) is in similar territory, price-wise.
…and the 'Merican muscle cars are also approximately the size of river barges compared to even the Genesis, with nightmarishly bad sight lines. They are horrendously impractical cars if you're doing anything besides drag racing (like, say, changing lanes or parking).
…and a quick check shows that the base Miata stickers at $23k, FWIW.
In conclusion, I still think the 86 will succeed or fail based on price and weight.
From what I have read elsewhere it weighs approximately 2,650 lbs.
To elaborate, the leaked brochures that have been floating around indicate the car has a power to weight ratio better than 6kg per horsepower. At 200 horsepower, that puts an upper limit on the weight (at least for the Japanese-spec version) of 1200 kg, or about 2645 pounds. Is it substantially less than that? Could be. Will the Federalized version weigh more? Maybe. We'll see.
Thing is, if it's cheaper than all of the above and lighter, I'll take less power. Having more power doesn't necessarily make for the best car, and a well balanced ride would be much more entertaining.
I am curious why it has the spoiler of a secretary's Grand Am, however.
Balance. That is it.
But it's hard to sell skidpad numbers to Americans. We like HP. Not torques because we can't understand it.
The best handling, most fun car I owned was a 50hp MGB.
I want another.
WE HAVE ALL THE TORQUES!!
I think you're wrong. The RX8 had decent power but no torques and that's all that people here talk about. It's a phenomenal driving car, but gets thrown out because it doesn't have the torques.
It doesn't have enough torque and it uses fuel and oil like an old Explorer.
Look Ward don't be so hard on the Beav until he get's home and explains himself.
Wiki shows the last generation 2009 Mustang Secretary Mobile (V6 Coupe) at 3350. The new one should be about the same. That puts all three of these at the same basic weight level (probably) with the FT86 likely weighing a bit less. So yeah the power to weight ratio will be a bit off.
With the name trying to evoke the old Corolla 86 we have to ask the question of whether Toyota is more interested in handling then straight line performance. The Mustang and Camaro V6s are fine in a straight line but compared to a true compact both wont be able to keep up in the corners.
I would bet that a V6 Mustang would be more like the AE86 than the Scion whatever it is as I doubt it will have a solid axle. Although, the 2012 Mustang lbs per horse of 11 or so compared the AE86's 18 is quite a leap.
It kind of makes me sad. I had such hope for this one. Instead it's sticking it's damn triangular ass tongue at me. Too bad the Veloster Turbo won't be RWD or AWD. ~200 horse and ~2500 lbs is a winning combination. Who am I kidding, I want one… bad.
(Veloster Turbo, not this probable porker)
Let's wait and see what the Subaru version looks like.
It looks the same, ha!
having said that… less than 2700lbs is impressive!
Looks, the same. Ha!
We have some apples and oranges here. The Toyota is rather shorter and narrower than the Mustang or Genesis – it's at least a size class smaller. At around 2,650 pounds (according to JimBob), it's also substantially lighter than the other two cars. The base Mustang V6 weighs around 3,450 pounds according to Consumer Guide (http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2012-ford-mustang-2dr-cpe-techspecs.htm). I would expect the FT-86 to be much more nimble – at least, I hope so.
You have a point… the closest car to it is probably teh Hyundai.
Actually, the Toyota is closest to the MX-5 in both dimensions and weight.
<img src="http://motoringmiddleeast.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/clipboard013.jpg?w=600&h=400">
Any chance I could get you to do that with an RX-8 and the FT-86? It seems like that is the closest competition.
The RX-8 has 7.5 inches on it.
The rear seat of an RX-8 is completely useable and rather comfortable though, I don't think the same will apply for this.
Edit: Then again, the 911 is longer than the RX-8 and it is legendary for its… spacious back seat. I know it has a rear engine, but I guess it all comes down to design.
I can read the #s just as well as any one and the usability of the rear seat is debateable (I'm 6' tall and 2' wide). I just don't have the photoshop skills to overlay them like that.
I'm about the same size (5'11″ 250) and have had no issue with the rear seat I do have the ability to cram myself into things most people aren't able to, so I do have that going. To me the rx8 is quite roomy in the back.
The graphic isn't mine. I pulled it from a posting on J*******.
eye see… alright I'll forgive you.
cool!
Figures be damned; I just don't like the look of it. The styling just isn't cohesive like, oh, I dunno; an AE86 was.
Arse end looks kind of like an RX-8, front wheelarches and fenders are fussy, and that nose…Meh. It's almost like Toyota are trying to encourage us to go out and buy used Celicas and Supras.
My biggest beef about the styling is the high, blunt front end. A lower and pointier nose would improve things so much but I guess it wouldn't meet Euro pedestrian regs.
That's true, but I also think it would be a lot more pleasing if they stuck with just one or two of the seven or so design themes they've tried to use.
Toyota's design language is built on fussy detailing. It's weird when you notice that strange details which never completely look right are a consistent through-line that ties different models together. Like that weird fog light surround that's kind of vertical, they put it on everything and they've never successfully pulled it off but it's a consistent cue.
I, for one, welcome the return of the Celica.
I think the new Celica looks nice, and maybe like in the 80s it'll still beat the higher-horsepower Mustang in some of the comparison tests. Anyway, Bertel Schmitt at TTAC said they quoted 6 seconds to 100kph, so say 5.8 to 60mph, and I guess we can estimate the rest of the performance measurements from that. So, slower than a V6 Mustang by a little, but I think eager handling and smaller size might easily overcome that technical difference.
The real numbers game for these will be the pricing. I'm estimating $22k or less will be a smashing success, $24k a sales success, $26k not so much, and anything higher will relegate it to footnote status. The numbers may even be tighter than that. The days of actually being able to sell a $30-40k RX-8 or 370Z are over.
A pal of mine is in the "business" and said the rumblings for the base Subaru was going to be around $27k. I was floored.
If this car were sub-$19k, it would be a hit for both companies.
More than $25k?
I'm still waiting on cheap Genesis Coupes to hit the market. Good 944$ are too rare for DEs anymore.
I don't think they can make money on a sport coupe at $19k anymore, that's Veloster and tC starting, econoboxes nominally in the style of sport coupes– surely the celica will cost a lot more to build. The price target has to be GTI/WRX I think. If you can get a nimbler, prettier car than those by only sacrificing practicality and not price or performance, then it will succeed. And the V6 Mustang now puts a cap on all of these options, so that anything daring to cost more gets hammered, though maybe I'm wrong as I hear the Genesis Coupe is actually still selling fairly well.
It may be impossible but at least give us* a stripper without all the bells and whistles. Mitsu or Subaru offered 'tuner' editions that didn't have a radio and came with steel wheels.
*us – people who buy cars to drive.
That's what Hyundai argued it was doing with the base 2.0T genesis coupe for $22.5k, slower but better-handling than the V6. Nobody bought it. People who buy cars to drive now know how much used M3 their $22k will buy them, or that they can get a low-mile RX-8 for half the cost of the stripper genesis.
Oh, and as I just wrote twice up above to be cheeky, let's wait and see what the Subaru version looks like, maybe they'll give us the stripper performance version if Toyota doesn't. 80s or even 90s Subaru would have done it that way, but I worry that Subie is like the hippie nerd who now has grown up, had a successful internet startup, and bought a house in the suburbs.
Not to interrupt but the similar thread at the ol Jalop-must-not-be-named has turned ugly
which further makes me appreciate Hooneverse that much more
atleast we can agree to disagree without name calling
HP isn't everything just look at the NSX
Lookswise I like the Subie more and I hope Scion doesnt make it too boy racer but more Honda S2000
a clean palette to work from so to speak
You can blow it out your arse.
Lol n00b etc. etc. etc.
Arse? It's so adorable when the Brits try to use swear words. Or try to build cars. Or both.
After an abortive attempt at total colonial rule, we have finally achieved adorability! Ah well, not a bad consolation prize.
And the Bristol 406 was OK…. (thanks for the engine, by the way).
I want to make your comment into a sign or bumper sticker like those "keep calm, have a beer" signs. (Carry on? sorry I don't like the carcasses of dead animals. Oh, CARRY ON, not carrion. I need to keep the three martini lunches to later in the week).
Good bumper sticker for a British car – "Mind the panel gap".
Nice. I'll tell that to my father the auto body shop owner.
Bwaa-haa-haa-haa!! Ow, ow! (faints from vertigo)
Those among other things are why I stopped frequenting [Redacted]. I found there were only a few things I even learned there and the constant tinkering that did nothing for the end user was getting annoying. I mean, if you're going to improve on something, maybe you should improve it with the criticisms, or concepts of your most loyal readers.
That's nice in theory, but I think of myself as a loyal reader around here and my concepts mostly involve blink tags and rotating gifs, so in practice it's inadvisable.
Sometimes you have to judge the character of the individual suggesting it.
Do they have any French cars that simply run out of power at 35 mph?
If yes, ignore their suggestions.
Do they commute in a 30 year old trikey?
If yes, ignore their suggestions.
Have they owned any power hardtop Fords for 20+ years without actually getting it running?
If yes, ignore their suggestions.
I think you get the idea.
Ah, but today I drove to work in an MG-badged Austin miniMetro, so, um, so there!
If they have been soiled by British electricianship, ignore their comments.(sorry rust, I had to)
Sure, there was some ridiculosity, you'll get that with 450 comments, but there was some good info in that Jalopnik post. There's a size comparison picture buried in the comments that was really great: profile outlines of Mustang. Genesis, GT 86, and Miata in comparison.
And why does the Mustang get abused for being so porker and the Genesis gets off the hook? Sure, it's 5.5 inches longer, but that's about the only difference. I don't get it.
My first ever image embed up in the Verse, this better work or I will piss pure anger.
<img src="http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/12/2011/11/0c6ef4e0dcc24cb9d9d3d994644aae15/original.png" width="600">
It looks like it worked, so your urinary tract is spared!
I really don't get the argument that the Mustang is huge… then again, this is coming from the guy that decided it was too small, and bought a Challenger (which at 197.7" OAL is the least-lengthy car I've ever owned, my Cougar and my T-bird were both 200" or so.)
The issue remains where the power is made, not how much it makes. I am skeptical of this car, only because I have seen fun-looking concepts turn into royal turds come production time.
With every update I feel like it is falling closer to Earth from its initial pedestal.
Well horizontally opposed cylinders will make for more torque, as will at least partial direct injection (see post below), so I expect it will have much more broad torque curve than the standard Japanese 2 liter. I still want to see that torque curve though, especially with peak torque not arriving until 6600rpm.
I know they're not competitors but I would've thought that the 1-series was the most compact 4 seater.
It's small, but at 3200lbs base curb weight (and if we're honest, 3285 – try finding a 128i without a slushbox, or any options for that matter), it's a porker.
If it's sub $25k I'm into it. I like the Mustang, but this is not comparable. This hopefully will be a real sports car, not a muscle car. I remember driving a 2004 Mustang GT back to back with my old Integra. While the Mustang was rwd and much faster, the Integra was way more fun to drive with much better handling, feel and precision. I know they've improved the Mustang since then, but I'm still thinking this is an apples to oranges comparison.
You really should not compare a 2004 Mustang to a 2012 Mustang. It makes you look silly.
I reserve judgement until I (or a sufficient number of others) have been behind the wheel. That the Miata is among the best driver's cars ever with a pretty unimpressive spec sheet leaves me a bit hopeful.
Based on the specs, it looks like it fills a void (if there is one) between the Miata and base Mustang, et al. I imagine a lot of aftermarket support and race/drift appearances could help as well.
Styling looks very Japanese, which isn't a value judgement, just an observation. Probably a plus for some and minus for others.
It'll never be under 20k, but hopefully will do most of its sales at/under 25k, because beyond that the value proposition dissolves compared to all the other options out there.
The Miata has soul though, something Toyota hasn't figured out how to put in it's cars since the early 90s.
That infotainment unit looks like it was installed by GeekSquad. Also, holy-Subbie interior. Toyota must have saved a ton by keeping the interior the same as last years STi.
I predict that ten years from now every fan of cars that are fun to drive will be lamenting the fact that they can't pick up an unmolested example of one of these used. I'm going to drive one before I say anything other than it's ugly – I am certainly not going to get into comparing numbers because if I wanted numbers I'd have bought a V-8 instead of an RX-8. Ahem. Dearthair.
My biggest beef other than the ugly wing is the Sube H-4 – I can't stand engines that sound all Don Rickles-raspberry.
How's that 3.2 lb-ft of torque treating you?
My rear Dunlops thank me. However, it's alarmingly easy to hit 230kph (and addictive), so I think I'm better off with not much HP or torques. I'm clearly not grown-up enough for 400 of each.
It's only 9 inches longer than a Miata and they crammed in rear seats? I don't think that's going to be too useful except for groceries and stuff.
Let me share a quote from a little-known blog, currently in maintenance mode, called "Tanshanomi's Snap Judgments"—
"…I was never very impressed with acceleration or top speed. I have always enjoyed compact dimensions, light weight, low mass and narrowness much more than blistering performance."
I was talking about bikes, but I think I've found a 4-wheeler I can lust after. And I frankly kinda dig the looks.
It seems like the weight will be good enough. As long as its not the previously stated 27k, it'll be a fun car.
Is anyone else mystified by the D4-S system? Fuel injection is generally not a "more is better" aspect of the car, as more than enough fuel can be applied by both port-injection or direct injection. But it seems like adding port injection back into the design prevents them from using a higher compression ratio without increasing the likelihood or pre-ignition, detonation or both. I guess it might alleviate some of the workload on the high pressure fuel system required for direct injection, but it seems like a step backward, not forward. Toyota's website apparently doesn't want to talk about this feature (that I can find anyways).
Yea, I don't get it either. Perhaps the extra port injectors are used during WOT only? Nissan Versa sedan has the same setup.
Well, it's coming over as a Scion, and Scion's never been known for performance (at least out of the box). They're more about image, and keeping the price of admission low.
WTH is that logo on the steering wheel, anyway? I can't figure it out, even when zoomed in.
<img src="http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1251&d=1297792444">
It's supposed to be an 86, stylized.
Kinda looks like it says BS.
Something they're not telling us?
A stylized "86" I think.
I'm glad this is basically the only corner of the internet I hang out in, since I've been worried that the 300hp Mustang was going to be the default criticism of this car. Granted, I'm coming out of a 140hp compact car, but 197 still sounds like a pretty decent step forward, I still enjoy driving the Civic Si, and a more practical Miata sounds pretty phenomenal.
Agreed. me thinks you may like this little car.
The proof will be in the dynamics. On paper, though, 200 horsepower and 2600-ish pounds slots it in nicely between a Miata and a used S2000, all of which are in play at the 25k-ish range. I'll say that I'm cautiously optimistic about this one.
I have to say, right now the thing I like the most about it is the red LED digital clock below the Sat-Nav, that looks like it could have been in the old AE86. Or every other Japanese car of the '80s.
It's fantastic.
I am pretty sure that there are brand new Lexuses with that same clock on the dash.
… It's not trying to be retro, they're just cheap. It's been in every Toyota I've ever been in. Although, this one is red.
How fast they can go around Nürburgring or get 1/4 mile down the road I really don't care. Two of the most fun cars I have and the pleasure of spending considerable time in are the Miata and 240z lets add the the 240 specs to your list…
240z
Powah.. 151hp
Length..162.8 in
Height 50.5 in
Wheelbase 90.7 in
Width 64.1 in
Kerb weight 2,355 lb
I think this Toyota has a good chance of not being a turkey ,,, Scion FR-S is just as poor a name as GT-86 but whats in a name it looks good enough has RWD I hope it makes it.
I like it. Here's hoping a few more manufacturers try going this route.
Turkey or not, I want one. It's everything my Mustang wasn't. It's a Civic Si without that stupid dashboard. A GTI with reliability. A Miata without the stigma, etc.
If its priced in the low 20s and can get over 30 MPG on my highway commute, I'll take one over whatever dumpy econobox I'd eventually buy otherwise.
And if it's a turkey, so what? That just means you'll get to reap the same ridiculous resale values the 4th-gen Supra and S2000 owners enjoy down the road.
I have a feeling that this might end up with a turbocharger at some point. And 200 hp isn't a bad starting point.
Think of it as a more powerful MX-5 coupe with two extra seats. That way it makes a lot of sense, and i want one and i will very seriously consider one. I have been waiting for a reasonably priced RWD 2+2 coupe for the last… i don't know, 7 years or so. It all comes down to price. If it's more expensive than a Type-R Civic then it's dead.
If this is indeed light(1200kg or so which sounds entirely possible) and has direct injection, also considering better aerodynamics it should have lower emissions than the Civic so CO2-based tax would be somewhere around 26-29%. If tax-free price is abouit 20k euros then it will sell. If they only import high-spec models then it's dead. This is Finland im talking about. Make mine a base model in white. Also my numbers might be off, sleep is not working right now.
[youtube 0Jr-iYAtpWM http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Jr-iYAtpWM youtube]
1220kg's Subaru press release.
Well, I guess I will be the one to be concerned about fuel economy. The boxer doesn't get terrible fuel economy, but it wont get great MPG's either.
Keeping it light will be key, to be sure.
I'm interested to see what happens here economy-wise, actually — relatively new engine design, lightweight car, and the first time in a long time that a Subaru engine has been attached (in a production car, anyway) to something other than an AWD system, thereby decreasing parasitic loss.
…although regardless it'll be quite a bit better than my WRX. Oh well, tradeoffs…
Autocar in the UK published a test and the writer compared the fun-to-drive ratio as being at Porsche Cayman levels. If that's remotely true, enthusiasts everywhere better snap these things up or it'll get cancelled and we'll be left mourning the AE86 and 240SX all over again.