Hooniverse Asks- What Former Future Classic Hasn’t Lived Up To Expectations?
Not any more they won't
Yesterday we ruminated over whether or not the Aussie-built GTO will find its future basking in collectors’ garages, or facing an ignominious end at the jaws of a junkyard crusher. The general consensus was classic, and for a lot it was lamenting not being able to afford one right now. But what if you are wrong?
When it was first introduced in 1969 the Datsun 240Z outshone its competition. It was more competent in every way and feature rich than the long-serving British sportscars, and much more reliable than the Italians. So why is it that today, an MGB, TR6 or Afla Spider command so much more than a Z of equal condition? What other cars share the Z’s shouda’ coulda’ woulda’ crown?
You see a car and, owing to exclusivity and provenance, you fully expect that down the road it will become a beloved classic, maybe you even buy one in anticipation. Then, for whatever reason, it simply falls off of everybody’s radar. Sure it may be unique – hell it may even be a good car – but a classic? No way.
A lot of times this occurs despite the best efforts of the car maker – affixing limited production series plaques to dashboards or built by Nut Busterson script on valve covers. And down the road, all that effort ends up for naught, as not only was the car’s production limited, but so to is any current ardor for the make.
Production isn’t really a good gauge of future desirability as they made a ton of Jag E-types and MGBs, two cars which have done well in the classic car marketplace. And genre doersn’t seem to factor in either as demand for muscle cars varies extremely between makes and models.
So, looking back through the fog of time, what car or cars did you once think would be a future classic, but then failed to ignite that expected level of interest in their golden years? And you didn’t get stuck with it did you?
IMage sources: [Productioncars.com, limit4000]
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<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f1/Red_closed_Caddilac_Allante_fl.jpg/800px-Red_closed_Caddilac_Allante_fl.jpg" width="500">
When I was a kid I was sure this car was gong to be worth something. Not many of them were made. The European cars that it tried to be like all sold for a lot. But today all the listings fall around this depending on miles, year, and the whether the new car dealership it in the lot of sells a luxury brand or not.
1990 Cadillac Allante 49,000 miles $7,999
Maybe in a couple of decades the price will go up?
[youtube VGZ42g0kR28 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGZ42g0kR28 youtube]
This is also the car that inspired the Bundy Bounce.
Haaaa! The Bundy Bounce. Now that is a classic.
I wonder if there is a thread somewhere on some obscure discussion board where a mention of the Allante is not followed by a link to this clip…
But try to find a 1993 model with the Northstar engine for cheap. People have been hunting those down for a while. I'd call the Allante a sleeper – it will become collectible.
Yes, it's a car that will inevitably rise in value, especially the 93, which finally had an engine to keep up with the Italian suit. Even the beat up ones that are being allowed to die off now will be scavenged later for their trim and panels, as the overall supply is fairly limited.
Ah, good info as always, thanks.
The big problem with the Datsun Z? You couldn't put the top down. Had Nissan made a roadster version, people would be fighting each other for the survivors.
Some contenders:
The Lotus Elan you pictured is a great choice. FWD? Later built by Kia?
Mustang SVO – Who needs a coarse, peaky turbo Four when any V8 GT built since 1987 (and the 2011 V6) can run circles around it?
1976 Eldorado convertible – This was going to be the "last convertible forever", right?. Don't believe the hype.
1981-1983 Imperial – Still a Plymouth Volare in drag. Frankie never did help much.
Scanning down all the attempts to explain why the Z is not yet really a classic, I think you've got the most convincing one. Good for us hoons, though as it means that for cheaper than an MGB, TR6, or Alfa Spider, we can get a car that is a million times more reliable, easy to work on and get parts for, handles far better, and actually depending on your politics looks at least as good as any of the others. For me a Z is far more a classic than a boring, stodgy MGB, a car that reminds me of my high school biology teacher.
RR Siliver Spur and Spirit. Hey, it's a Roller, it's a classic 10 minutes after it comes off the line, right? Not so with these. While many of Crewe's designs are timeless, the first generation of these are decidedly dated. The plastic fantastic headlight doors, in particular.
<img src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Rolls-Royce_.jpg/250px-Rolls-Royce_.jpg">
These Rolls just didn't look all that special. Take off the grille and you have a fat, bloated version of a '67 Chevelle. At least those monster headlights have a clean, unified appearance. Look at the mess US buyers were saddled with.
<img src="http://images.classiccars.com/classifieds/146019_10759559_1982_Rolls-Royce_Silver%2BSpirit.jpg" width=500>
These models are legendary for electrical problems that defy cure. That has somewhat sullied their reputation.
It even got eclipsed by the Bentley Turbo R.
…Which, perversely, I would love to own. Well, in my fantasy world, anyway. I certainly wouldn't love to maintain it.
Now I wonder if there was any difference between the Eight, Turbo R, Brooklands or Mulsanne. I think they were just dropping names to see if one would stick.
Am I wrong for wanting a Reatta? I just love the `80s computer technology inside! It has a touchscreen!
Its more recent future classic, but I am solidly of the opinion that the Prowler has failed ALL expectations.
Have you ever been in a Prowler? As huge looking as they are on the outside, they're tiny inside. I'm not the biggest built guy on a 5'8" frame, and I felt claustrophobic in there.
Yeah, sad fail. At least ChryCo had a hit with the Viper.
It's the Intrepid engine, I suspect. If its styling had been altered a bit to allow a V8, they might actually be worth something. Who knows…
I agree. It could have been cool, but it just didn't get the proper amount of love. Viper engine is what comes to mind…
The Reatta might have been more noticeable had the styling not been so nondescript.
Ah, right you are! I should also state that I wouldn't kick an Olds Toronado Trofeo outta bed, either.
I have a secret thing for the Troféo.
Oops. I guess it's not anymore.
Yeah, me too. Is admitting the first step?
Welcome to the club. Monthly meetings are held every 3rd Thursday. Please bring a dish to share.
[youtube qzt3DW_ff-E http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzt3DW_ff-E youtube]
Slick leather jacket, bro.
"Butter cream, butter cream, croc skin, butter cream…"
I'll bring the chips and dip.
Honestly, how can you not find a car that was available with a touchscreen infotainment system AND a built-in phone in the early '90s (before either of those things were really hip) cool?
there's nothing secret about my love of the last gen Toronado & Trofeo
A couple things glare at me about the 240Z example. In "classic" territory, poor reliability isn't really an issue. Much of the value comes from the mystique, the memories, and the image. Poor reliability would result in more of them being taken off the road due to mechanical failure, so there would be a reduced number available for collectors down the road. Also, higher performance isn't a shoe-in, either. Once it's a "classic," the performance is typically going to be pretty dismal. There are notable exceptions – a '68 Charger is still a pretty frighteningly fast car, for example. But for the most part, a sports car from 40 years ago is going to be really slow compared to a sports car today, so being faster than its peers isn't going to make it a definite classic.
One car that will retain its value but hasn't done what collectors expected is the first gen Viper. You had people putting them in dry storage for investment purposes when they came out, but today you can pick them up for well under $30k in pristine condition. That's pretty good for a car, but lousy for an investment, given that they listed for over $50k new, and sold for well over that for a lot of their initial run.
Some others: Prowler. Ugh. SSR. Double ugh.
I'm going to agree with absolutely everything you said except one point. I think the Prowler is kickass, it just hasn't had its time yet.
The Prowler went from an awesomely cool car when it was released, to an over-styled and under-exciting car soon after. But years later with my rose-coloured glasses on, I really appreciate what Plymouth did and I think that its finally a fantastically cool car. Its really the most useless and unpractical car on earth and I'm sure Plymouth knew that, but they built it anyway. That gets a ton of cool points from me. Those ugly black federally-mandated bumpers? They intentionally made them easily replaceable with something aftemarket. Need trunk space? Plymouth would sell you a trailer styled like the car! GENIUS! In twenty years, see what one of these cars with a matching trailer goes for at auction.
Sure its only got 250hp and a 4-speed slushbox, but it only weighs 2800 pounds. And even with its Jay Leno chin, it looks totally badass. I'd drive one, and I'd even have the top down.
Okay, I'm going to give you that one. Part of me wants to universally decry the Prowler because of the (relatively) low power and automatic transmission, but the kid in my still loves it. In many ways, that's what makes a classic – a car that by many metrics is either downright awful or at least seriously compromised in some way but remains desirable for some reason. By that standard, the Prowler wins, so perhaps in 20 years or more it'll be worth a small fortune.
I would love to be able to figure out what cars are at that sweet spot, where they're currently almost disregarded and valueless, but in a couple decades will fetch enormous money at auction. I guess the only way to do that is to play the game, and since I only have parking for a few cars, it's not one I can play just yet. (Not that I necessarily will – I enjoy driving my cars too much!)
The 240 is still a lowly Datsun to US eyes. In Japan I'm sure it hold much more value.
"Lowly Datsun?" bite your tongue!
I still want a 1st gen 200SX, and that's about as lowly as it gets.
<img src="http://www.adclassix.com/images/77datsun200sx.jpg" height="380">
Oh My Gawd. I had no idea. It's hideous.
I love it.
There is a reason Datsun became Nissan,
You ain't kiddin'. Datsun ugly car.
Any anniversary Corvette, but especially the 1978 25th Anniversary model.
Of course, if you want to make money, you shouldn't be buying a car. But no matter how obscure or unloved, there's somebody out there collecting it. I just met a guy that collects Rover Sterlings. He's cornered the market on Hondas crippled at birth by British electronics.
I think some guys are just now getting what they paid for out of the <100mile 1978 Pace Car Corvettes. I think those probably had the highest percentage of store away and never drive of any car except maybe the GNX.
Part of the appeal of owning and running a Sterling is the Russian Roulette / Lottery side of things. Will it start / continue running / get you to your destination on a given day or not?
Except all you win or lose in the lottery is a typical commute.
I love the styling of the 827SLi. If only it wasn't FWD. I just wish I could find a cheap SD-1, that would do as well.
I know it's not Tuesday, but in the two-wheeled world, the early '80s are full of them:
<img src="http://www.tanshanomi.com/temp/BMW-R65LS-1981.jpg">
1981 BMW R65LS
<img src="http://www.tanshanomi.com/temp/Suzuki-GS550M-Katana-1982.jpg">
Suzuki 550 Katana
<img src="http://www.tanshanomi.com/temp/Yamaha-XJ650T-Turbo-1982.jpg">
Yamaha 650 Turbo
<img src="http://www.tanshanomi.com/temp/HD-XR1000-1984.jpg">
Harley-Davidson XR1000
<img src="http://www.tanshanomi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/KZ1000G.jpg" width="360">
1980 Kawasaki KZ1000 Classic (the first production motorcycle to have electronic fuel-injection)
I am sure there are more. Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.
My buddy almost jumped on an R65 over the summer. IMO one of the better looking 80's bikes.
I have to add the Yamaha GTS1000. Of course, I want it.
<img src="http://www.dropbears.com/images/motorcycles/yamaha/gts1000a.jpg">
These are suprisingly sought-after among sidecar lovers. Single side suspension FTW!
Never thought about that, makes perfect sense.
BTW, I'm not sure that the Reatta is such an unwanted child. A elderly gentleman down the street from my workplace has a very cherry Reatta. I stopped to talk to him one day when he was detailing it in his driveway. "You'll be #7 on the list" were his first words to me. "Number Six just left." That's right, he had seven standing offers to name his price for the car, should he choose to sell it.
Yeah, I think the well looked-after Reattas are just now finally beginning to appreciate in value. For what it is–a gentlemanly cruiser with no real sporting pretensions–it's actually a pretty good car, and the mechanicals are so simple that it's easy to keep them running. I would drive one.
I had no idea that Number_Six had such an appreciation for end-of-Malaise GM engineering…
I'd fool around with a Reatta but I'd marry a Toronado Trofeo.
BMW 8-series:
<img src="http://static.cargurus.com/images/site/2008/05/03/18/08/1995_bmw_8_series_850csi-pic-33058.jpeg">
Agreed. Completely. Resurgence and stiffening of values due to '80s style shoulder-pad glam in 3, 2, 1….
Agreed on the 8-Series. If I could find an 850i with a 6-Speed.. I would be happy
Good luck with that. Those with butter-churns tend to keep them.
I kinda dug these (in a shameful way). They seemed much more raucous and sporty than the SL500/600 of the times.
When the PT Cruiser first went on sale, somebody I knew absolutely wanted one. His choices were to either go to the dealer and spend $2K over sticker price for one they had in inventory, or place an order at sticker price and wait 4 months for delivery. When New Beetles first went on sale, I think the dealers were gouging $4K over sticker. Of course, while both of those vehicles have their followings, neither one will be priced as a collectible any time in the near future.
I think if you do a bit of simple division-how many people wanted the car when they first went on sale divided by the number still on the road today-you can get a pretty good idea of a car's future as a collectible. If former demand divided by present supply is greater than 1, there is a good shot at future collectability.
The PT and the New Beetle flooded the market, thus inhibiting their collectibility. Contrast that to the E-Jag and MGB, which didn't sell in huge numbers, and most of the ones that were made have since been converted into a cloud of Lucas smoke. The Z-cars, being much more reliable and produced in larger numbers, are still attractive Lemons candidates.
The PT Cruiser Limited Edition was one of the most erroneously named vehicles ever. I think there must have been years in which the majority of production was "Limited Edition."
When I bought my Mustang a few years ago, the base model I bought was called "Deluxe" and the upscale version was "Premium."
Ford- the company who brought you the LTD and LTD II.
The worst thing about the first-year New Beetles was that you couldn't get the desirable 1.8T, and even the 1.9TDI was rare, generally saddling new adopters with the practically-Soviet 115-horsepower 2.0 (which was a genuinely unpleasant car with the four-speed slushbox, and I say that as someone who drives an automatic Volvo with comparable horsepower, albeit more torque).
Oh, yeah, and the earlier New Beetles had a funny tendency to catch on fire, too, but that's nothing compared to having to drive a 2.0 saddled with the Automatic of Sorrow.
Meanwhile, my mother's 2001 (1.8T/five-speed) is doing fine.
Chrysler TC by Maserati. Surely thought, by many, to be a classic…someday. Sadly, that day may never arrive.
Gawd. I had a guy start telling me excitedly not too long ago about how he had been to a car auction and almost bid on "a Maserati" that ultimately sold for only $3200 or something like that even though it was in amazing condition. I asked him a couple of questions about what this car was and what it looked like, and I realized I had to explain to him that what he saw was not in any way, shape or form a real Maserati. I was really glad I was not explaining that to him after he bought it.
The guy dad bought the hearse from had a whole field full of semis, jeeps and military trucks- one of those collectors with not enough time, little garage space and an easygoing wife. Up front of his house was parked a Reatta that was also for sale. My dad briefly considered a package deal but didn't think a Reatta would be appreciated by my older sister and ultimately passed on it. It was in great shape for a near 20 year old car and I'd never seen [or maybe noticed] one before.
Basically any malaise era special edition or "brougham" car won't realize the potential of other classics. But they do still have their collectors. My uncle always had a thing for Rivieras. Not the old handsome Rivi's from the 60s but the 7th generation from 1986-93. He owned about 4 or 5 in a row I think, up until recently. despite being a GM man [worked at Harrison radiator co. in Lockport NY for probably 30 yrs] he bought his wife a new Mustang a few yrs ago and jumped on a new Challenger R/T much to the surprise of basically everyone in the family. He's gonna let me work that pistol grip one of these days when I visit and there isn't snow on the ground.
Andrew up ^there^ got to the BMW 8 Series before I did. It was designed in that magical period before we had to act all responsible, where driving a car that looked like it could unleash the fury of hell was still socially acceptable.
I'll bet that most kids today could never guess that it was a 20 year old design. Surely the values for the Ci and CSi will stiffen soon.
Total agreement. The 850Csi and Vantage (below) represent all that's great about early-90's GTs.
<img src="http://www.diseno-art.com/images/Aston_Martin_Vantage_SC.jpg">
How did you ever guess that I go ever so slightly giddy over the Vantage? It's almost as if you have a window into my soul.
That's not the only thing stiffening when it comes to the 8-series.
Part of the reason 240z's values haven't climbed like other pre-malaise sports cars has to do with the sheer number of them produced in the first place. That initial production volume means there are still a lot of early Z's around. I've been watching the values of the early Z's (as I wouldn't mind owning one) and the asking price of a clean, unmodded, no excuses 240 or 260Z has indeed been going up. Maybe not at the rate of early 911's (whose values have gone balistic in the last couple of years), but up all the same. As the Europeans, who didn't buy that many of them the first time around, start to figure out what a great car it is…and judging by all the early Z appearences in Octane, Classic & Sports Car, et al, they ARE starting to figure it out….you'll see the prices for the best Z's continue to climb.
I'd put the BMW 2002 on this list as well. People love them, but their values keep up with inflation in the best years. Perfectly preserved or restored cars finally have some value, but the best ones are almost 40 years old now. Don't blue chip classics start to assert themselves when they're closer to 20 years old? I'd put the 2002 in the same boat with the 240Z. People know they're good cars and they have plenty of fans, but you still can't get your money out of a restoration. Not even close.
I will step up to the plate and state that the Corvair will never be considered a classic. A collectible? yes. A Classic…. sadly no. You have to find one with a body that is in decent shape, and then not put too much into restoration because you will never get that value back. These are still under $10,000 cars in mint condition (with the Turbo's going for a bit more, and the Fitch and Yenko specials command just a few dollars more). These cars are never good investments, which is great for the average backyard mechanic as they are simple to maintiain, and relatively robust.
i see just about every single "pace car edition" every year… and you have, i believe, picked out the two that always make me laugh (i live in Indy)
Even more than this one:
<img src="http://www.indypacecars.com/photos/2001/01-bravada-driver.jpg"width=500>
At least to my knowledge they didn't sell any extra replicas to the public, maybe just the ones actually used at Indy.
What about this former retro future classic?
<img src="http://www.allsportauto.com/photoautre5/ford/thunderdird/2002_ford_thunderbird_01_m.jpg"/>
They were horrendously overpriced, so it's kinda hard for them to appreciate much, value-wise. But interest-wise, I'd definitely take one if it had low enough miles and a low enough price.
I'm no collector, however. I just think it would be neat to have a shorter, drop-top version of the Town Cow, which is exactly what it is — The Cowbird.
Flex my sidewalls, baby
W140 Mercedes-Benz S/CL-Class. The last Benzes that were, to borrow the company's old advertising tagline, "Built to a standard, not a price." Seriously, the design and engineering teams had to have locked all the beancounters in the broom closet. DOHC, 4 valve/cylinder engines (including a V12). Power door and trunk latches. Dual-glaze windows all around. All told they spent over $1 billion on development.
Sure, they're much heavier, harder to maintain and altogether less pretty than the W126s they replaced, but they represent the top of the mountain for screw-budgets overengineering in Stuttgart. If you can stomach the service (and, for that matter, fuel) costs, buy a V12 coupe for under $20k while you still can.
<img src="http://www.fantasyjunction.com/img/cars/large/15112.jpg" width="500">
One billion pounds no less. That much more expensive.
Wouldn't that be more like deutschmarks?
Regardless, I'd love to own a Merc one of these days.
IIRC the PR machine that coughed up this info stated pounds.
I suspect those high running costs have done an excellent job of eradicating these. I almost never see a W140, but I can depend on at least a couple W126s to drive by in a week.
Right? I live in a town where W123s, W126, the odd W116, as well as 40-50 year old VWs and USDM trucks are not unusual to be seen as daily drivers, but W140s are super rare. I saw a sedan the other day, but I can't think of hte last time I noticed one.
The W140 coupes, however, are about as sexy as a 90s car can be– I could be talked into putting up with one.
Wait a minute, Emslie, that just isn't true about the market prices of the 240z up against those others. Right now, the cheapest of those four given comparable condition is the Alfa, then the MGB, then the 240z, with the TR6 commanding the highest prices. The MB and the Datsun both have a wider spread between beat up examples and restored ones, which can throw off a casual look at the market, but look closer at a number of examples and you'll find the Z has actually gone up in price in the last few years. Looking this up, I came across a complaint on a porsche forum that now even a 280zx is worth more than a 924 or non-turbo 944, cars that cost a great deal more new. So don't write off the Datsuns too soon.
As a Datsun owner, I'll chime in. I agree with both of your posts, but due to the number made, the Z's will never have the collector cache that the others have. The values may fluctuate due to buyer interest/hype/flavor du jour, but I doubt Z's will ever reach the exclusivity the others enjoy, short of rust. A true workingman's sportscar, available at a worker's wage.
Out of curiosity, are you using the Autocar or SportsCar Classic price listings?
Yeah, but the phrase "treasured their cars as though they were Duesenbergs" covers a regrettably broad range of territory.
<img src="http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5287/5268964415_565de2afd4.jpg" width="500">
Any car with a mustache bumper is friggin' awesome in my book.
Anybody want to go in partners with me on my ground-floor moneymaking opportunity collecting 1st Gen Priuses and Honda Insights?
You trying to build your own superfund site?
I do that for a living.
But, uh, seriously, the first-generation Prius is a joke of a car, but the Insight can be wicked fun with a bit of work.
The Insight is the only modern hybrid that I appreciate for its gas mileage efforts. How its efficiency hasn't been matched or exceeded is a troubling mystery to me, especially considering its discontinuation. It's a classic for sure.
Just got around to reading my Jan '11 Car & Driver and I read this coincidentally relevant bit from John Phillips' column [probably the biggest reason I still subscribe next to Davis]. Responding to the question posed by his neighbor, "What car, good or bad, most surprised you during your career?":
"After some thought, my answer was the Buick Reatta I drove in 1988. The car looked great but had been preceded by a pantload of hype, so disappointment was inevitable. It was less a sports car than a two-seat Riviera. Its dash-mounted computer screen made me hate such digital frippery forever. And my test car's V6 ate its balance shaft four blocks from the Reatta Craft Centre in Lansing."
I always thought those old green/black dash screens were cool in a completely useless way. I was kind of thinking, maybe even hoping, the Reatta surprised in a good way, but then it probably would be a classic, huh?
One of the exceptions to the rule (this car is still teh sex as far as I'm concerned.)
<img src="http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/1978-corvette-3.jpg"/>
See my reply to Jim below RE: 78 Pace Car.
A whole bunch of these were squirled away. The black and gray with red trim isn't bad, but I don't car for the details, not crazy for fast back C3s either. I'm partial to the earlier ones, since I have a '77.
Saw a mint one with the plastic still on the seats go at Barret Jackson for stupid money. Basically a life-size model car, put it on your mantel!
I remember some guy in my home town drove one of these around when new…it was horrible then. At least now it has some kitsch. Kind of like "Hungry, Hungry Hippos".